Part 9, Curing AIDS Victims & Debunking Deadly Medical/Media Drug Dogma
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        The following transcript is of a tape-recorded broadcast  
        by NO-commercials, NO-corporate-influences, listener-funded,
        beacon-of-truth Pacifica Radio Network station for the People: 
                   WBAI-FM (99.5)
                   505 Eighth Ave., 19th Fl.
                   New York, NY 10018       (212) 279-0707

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                        (continuation)
MICHAEL ELLNER:
Also, all the T cell tests that Frank Bonacas[sp] has been looking
at, where they talk about normal T cells .... he couldn't find a
test that didn't involve people using AZT. So, my guess is that we
really don't know what normal T cell levels are. And certainly,
those tests have to be looked at with a grain of salt because if
people are using AZT, it certainly would bias the results.      
It's a terrible drug.

GARY NULL:
Alright. Thank you, Michael.  If people would like more information
on the weekly meetings that you provide, tell us how people could
reach you.

MICHAEL ELLNER:
They can call (212) 674-HOPE.  And thanks for being a voice out
there. I would hate to think what it would be like if there was 
no Gary Null. You're one of the few beacons in this crisis, and
you're well appreciated; you and Tony Brown and a few others.
The Natives have been the only people who have had the courage,
through the broadcast media, to tell the truth.  Bless you.

GARY NULL:
Well, thank you, Michael.  Michael Ellner of HEAL. And he also was
referring to Tony Brown, who IS one of the few broadcast journalists
who is not afraid to go on the line on these issues. And also, over
to the New York Native with John Lorenson, who is going to be on
this program tomorrow. He has done a lot of work.

And again, we're not saying that this is the first and last word.
We're saying that in any type of major health crisis, we should 
have an open mind and look at all the different areas, and see what
is reasonable and what makes sense. 

I would like to thank my guests, Dr. Root-Bernstein, Michael Ellner
and Dr. Morton Walker. I'm Gary Null. This is a continuation of our
series on the Politics of Science and Medicine, which will be going
on for this entire week. I hope that you'll have an opportunity to
listen in each day, right here at 99.5 FM on the the dial, WBAI.

  [The following day's program is transcribed below.]

GARY NULL:
This series examines the politics influencing the state of Science 
and Medicine in the United States today.  We're exploring the topic
of AIDS, but from a different perspective -- one that you have
generally not heard or seen in the mainstream Media. We're going to
ask some questions as to why that is the case. Why, with all the
resources, the unlimited budgets to explore, the access to
authorities, why is it that they have not come up with the
understandings or revelations that we have been able to share with
you on a daily basis? And, at some point, this becomes paramount
because if, in any way, it can be shown that the Mass Media has been
complicitous in continuing to perpetuate any myth which deprives a
person of an opportunity to have the benefit of a system of healing,
or which deprives a person of an understanding of the cause of their
disease, then we must also make the Media share the responsibility
for the continuation of that suffering.

My guests today are individuals who have uniquely personal feelings
about the subject of AIDS, because, according to the traditional
line, they are all victims of this plague. Is that, indeed, their
thoughts? Do they feel as if they are helpless? Do they feel that
they are going to die?  Many people who are diagnosed as HIV-
positive immediately equate HIV with AIDS, and they equate AIDS 
with suffering and death.  You'll hear THEIR stories, and I feel
these are stories that we should pay carefull attention to. 

Medicine will say: "Well, these testimonies are insignificant
because they are anecdotal, and, therefore, they have no major
value."  In reply, I would suggest that you must then discount
ninety-five percent of all Medicine because what do you have with
persons taking AZT, but anecdotal references! 

Now, in the case of AZT, are we examining the people who have used
it, done the protocol exactly as the physician instructed, and died
in rather large numbers, and have we asked the question: "Did the
drug, in any way, contribute to their failing health or disease"?
Do we have an epidemic of iatrogenic [induced by the physician's
treatment] disease that they're calling AIDS?  We'll explore that
question with one of our guests right now: John Lorenson[sp].
Welcome to the program, John.

John, the issue that came to my mind with the case of Arthur Ashe
was that Arthur was using AZT and the other toxic drugs. And, as I
saw him over a period of months, met with him, spoke with him and
tried to encourage him to at least be open to exploring alternative 
[wholistic] therapies, none of which he ultimately used, he kept
holding to the belief that his AZT and DDI and DDC were the drugs
that would help him, even though he continued to go downhill and
downhill and downhill -- even though he had an opportunity to see,
which he did, and hear, which he did, and to review literature,
which he did, from people who had NOT used AZT -- people with
advanced AIDS who were doing remarkably well. In fact, they were
completely healthy despite the fact that they still had the HIV
virus.  So, here was a man who was both sensitive to the issues,
educated, yet he still, in my opinion, fell victim to that iron-grip
hand that the Medical Community has over how we perceive disease 
and what the treatment modality should be.  So, from your
perspective, in the very methodical way that you're more than
capable of doing, would you please lay out the story of AZT and the
other analogues, and give us the side of the story that the Mass
Media has thus far omitted from our awareness.

JOHN LORENSON:
I think I read a dozen obituaries on Arthur Ashe. And only one in
the New York Times mentioned that he had been on AZT and didn't do
well, and then was shifted to DDI which is another nucleoside
analogue. Now, in his case, he was sick. I don't know the reasons
why he was sick, but certainly he had health problems. But a much
more striking case is that of Rudolph Nureyev. Nureyev was not sick
at all. He was in fine health when he was given a diagnosis of 
being HIV-positive. He was given an experimental French drug which
apparently was not too toxic, and for a couple of years he 
continued to perform and was in great shape.

And THEN they put him on AZT, and he began to decline. And he died,
in my opinion, very clearly, from AZT poisoning. So this was a
healthy person who was killed off by therapay that there was no
reason in the world he should have had in the first place.
                        (to be continued)
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          This information could benefit millions of people who
          have, or who will have the HIV virus. So please help to
          disseminate it by posting the episodes of this ongoing
          series to computer bulletin boards, and by posting 
          hardcopies in public places, both on and off campus.

                John DiNardo

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You can contact Gary Null  at (212) 799-1243
                P.O. Box 918
                Planetarium Station
                New York, NY 10024
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